T.J. van Gerven is a Certified Financial Planner and founder of Modern Wealth Builders, LLC. In this episode, T.J. and Chris talked about health savings accounts, employee stock purchase plans and how you can navigate such personal finance decisions to maximize your money’s worth. Be sure to tune in for another incredibly informative and engaging episode.
Chris Pratt: We have an awesome guest today. He is a Certified Financial Planner, founder of Modern Wealth Builders, LLC, and host of the “Do More with Your Money” podcast. He has been quoted in US News and World Report, Market Watch and Investors Business Daily among others. His name is T.J. van Gerven. Welcome to the show, T.J.
T.J. van Gerven: Thanks for having me, Chris.
Chris Pratt: So you are a certified financial planner and, uh, you’re actually the first CFP we’ve had on the show. Can you talk a little bit about the certified financial planner certification? Like what that is and, uh, what you had to do to obtain it?
T.J. van Gerven: Sure, absolutely. So the CFP is a designation, so I think a lot of people get this mistaken from time to time, but it’s not a license. So basically it’s an independent, non-profit organization where you have to go and take certain steps and, um, complete certain coursework and have a certain experience requirement before you can use a designation. So back in 2015, I was studying for the CFP coursework, took me a couple of years to complete, and then I took the exam, passed the exam. And then, um, you have to have at least three years of experience working under another CFP to use a designation.
Chris Pratt: Oh wow!
T.J. van Gerven: So it’s, um, yeah, it’s a pretty long process, but definitely a higher standard for kind of the financial advisory space.
Chris Pratt: Oh yeah. Wow. And, uh, you had mentioned something there that I want to talk about later, but first I want to talk a little bit about where you’re from. You grew up on the Island of Martha’s Vineyard, correct? Yeah, that’s correct. Yeah. And what was that like? Like what was that experience?
T.J. van Gerven: It’s a really unique experience, you know, I think a lot of people, when you tell them that they have a certain, um, stereotype of what that means, people think if you grow up on Martha’s Vineyard, like you’re wealthy and come from wealth and those kinds of things, but the people that live on the vineyard year round, and this is also for Nantucket, which is the neighboring island is, if you grew up there and you live there all year, it’s really kind of normal day-to-day people because it’s such a, um, you know, seasonal economy and a lot of it’s dependent on tourism. So the island really changes from, you know, June to September and then the rest of the year is way different because there’s a fraction of the people there. So growing up on the Island, you know, once summertime’s over, you know, you kind of, the locals are only people left over and you see everybody that, you know, on a daily basis. So it’s a very tight community there and they definitely had a huge impact on my kind of where I’m at today. I still go back there quite a bit.
Chris Pratt: And for those who don’t know, where is Martha’s Vineyard?
T.J. van Gerven: Yeah. So Martha’s Vineyard is an Island off of Massachusetts. So it’s, um, it’s part of Massachusetts, but it is definitely its own kind of world outside.
Chris Pratt: Yeah, really cool. That’s that’s real. I’ve never been there. I’ve only, honestly I’ve only been to Boston and Massachusetts, but definitely a place I wanna visit. Getting a little entrepreneurial here before we go into the actual, you know, personal finance stuff. How did you find your first clients when you became a CFP?
T.J. van Gerven: So, yeah, so I worked for other advisors before I went off on my own and started my own firm, but I started with zero clients and zero assets under management. And basically my initial clients came from my natural market. So just friends and friends of friends and people that knew me and trusted me and they didn’t really know what I was offering, what they were willing to sit down with me and, and were willing to listen to my value proposition about why they should engage in financial planning and what it looks like and those kinds of things. So I really just built it from the ground up. And then over time built up, kind of the content marketing idea where, you know, you automate your social media posts and you’re talking about things that are valuable to your kind of audience. And then, you know, you fall into your website and then you have basically the whole goal of my website is for someone to schedule a 15 minute phone call. And from there I make a determination for a mutual fit. And then we move on to the next step of the process. So at this point, it’s all content marketing and referrals, but originally it was from the ground up a hundred percent.
Chris Pratt: Okay. And you say that you, you mentioned that you help Island community members take the necessary steps to plan for their financial needs. And you also specialize in helping equity compensated professionals, manage taxes as, as it relates to, you know, employer stock. This is a quote while being mindful of potential concentration. Before we get into that, which is, you know, probably a subset of the general population of W2 workers or just workers in general, or even entrepreneurs. I want to ask a little bit about that. So a lot of our listeners are either in school, accumulating student loan debt, or have recently graduated and have a lot of debt that they have to, uh, pay off.
T.J. van Gerven: Right.
Chris Pratt: What would your advice be? A client comes into your office and sits down with you. What would your advice be to someone who has say, you know, a hundred thousand dollars, they have a sizable amount of student loan debt. Would you say like, let’s start getting invested in funds now, let’s save money. Let’s, let’s just put a hundred percent of your, your income. That’s not going to necessities, right? Food, water, shelter to the debt. What would your general approach be?
T.J. van Gerven: Yeah. So my general approach in this is for anybody who wants to have a conversation about how they should be using their money is, you have to have the complete picture. So it all starts with your income and your expenses. So what is your cashflow look and what are, are you, are you spending on more than just the necessities, right? So like you said, as long as you, you obviously have to pay your living expenses, you’re never going to get past that, but beyond your basic living expenses, what is your free cashflow look like? So how much extra money do you have on, let’s say a monthly basis to decide, you know, I’m going to use this money to grow my net worth, which can either come in the form of paying down debt or increasing investments, whether that’s through the stock market or that’s through, if you’re more entrepreneurial and you want to invest in yourself, there’s a lot of different ways you can go with it, but it all starts with cashflow.
So it really depends on what their cashflow looks like. And then, I mean, at the end of the day, it’s, it’s basic kind of personal finance, but depending on what the interest rates will look like on those student loans, you then make a determination. You know, what is the opportunity cost of paying down that student loan debt versus maybe investing in the stock market or investing in yourself or whatever you’re doing. And you have to make reasonable expectations and make a determination what’s the best use of your money. So that’s from a technical standpoint, as far as maximizing your money, but there’s also, you know, psychological and behavioral benefits to just focusing on paying down your debt. So you have to kind of factor in both of those things. You know, I tend to lean towards maximizing the value of people’s money. So I want to make a determination, is this interest rate low enough where we can, with a reasonable expectation, outperform it?
Um, and then also factoring in, you know, are you working? Do you have a steady income? Do you have a cash reserve? You know, are you taking advantage of your work’s pay benefits where it’s like the “give me’s”, right at the match on your 401k’s, things that are a guaranteed rate of return. So it really, I hate to say it depends, but I always come at things from a financial planning standpoint, which is I get a little frustrated sometimes when I, when I see, you know, more of kind of the large personal finance influencers, where they have great information, but personal finance is personal. So it really does depend a lot of times on your personal situation.
Chris Pratt: Yeah. And I love that approach. I love that you mentioned both the technical and the behavioral and sort of psychological aspects. Have you ever had clients that, you know, came in and you gave them advice, you gave them a plan and then they just did not follow it. And it was just frustrating for you. I imagine like personal trainers in gyms deal with this, often they, they say, or, or, um, you know, I’m doing physical therapy right now for an injury. So physical therapists give you all these exercises to do at home. And then, you know, you don’t do them. Have you ever had any, uh, clients like that and how do you deal with that?
T.J. van Gerven: Yeah. The personal training analogy is a really good one cause I do, you know, kind of see myself as a personal trainer for people’s finances, but I’ll be honest if somebody is really not advice receptive. Now, if they’re trying and it’s just, they need to keep working at it. That’s totally fine. But if somebody is not advice receptive to me, I’ve actually let clients go. And this is usually in the space of investing. So for example, if we’ve come up with an investment strategy and we have you invested a certain way, that makes sense based on your financial plan and maybe there’s some market volatility, I’m happy to coach clients through that. I’m happy to talk them through that. But if they come to me and say, I have to sell out, I say, that’s fine, but we cannot work together. If you’re not going to be advice receptive, it’s like going to the doctor and say, you need to prescribe me this.
Like, if you’re going to hire me, then you should be taking my advice. So when it comes to the personal finance decisions, as opposed to the investment decisions, I would say I’ve not really had any issues with that. I mean, a lot of times, you know, spending we’ll have to have conversations around, you know, you need to be more mindful spending. We always track spending to make sure that we’re staying on track for what we’re projecting, but at the end of the day, if someone’s really just not advice receptive, they don’t want to take my advice. And I will be like that. I will tell them that we probably shouldn’t work together because why are you paying me? If you’re not gonna take my advice, kind of thing.
Chris Pratt: Yeah. I really liked that approach because, you know, you’re basically saying, Hey, I’m not really helping you. And if you’re not able to follow my advice, so you’re better off not spending your hard earned money on me. I want to mention you are a fee-based advisor, right?
T.J. van Gerven: Fee only. Fee only, there’s a distinction there, but yeah, well…
Chris Pratt: Fee only. Okay. What’s the distinction?
T.J. van Gerven: If someone says fee-based, that means that they do charge fees for managing money, as in like a percentage kind of fee where it is transparent relationship, but they do also sell commissioned products, whether that’s insurance or annuities or some kind of commission financial product.
Chris Pratt: Okay. So fee based means you could also sell things for a commission. Fee only means we don’t do anything on a commission basis. Why might it be a bad idea to work with an advisor who takes a commission? And what, and what, what do you mean by that? When you say that they take a commission, where are they taking a commission?
T.J. van Gerven: Yeah, So there’s a couple of ways you can pay for financial advice and you either pay it transparently. So like when somebody sits down with me, I say, here’s my fee. And it’s a flat fee, which is in my opinion, the most transparent way of doing business. But you know, if you work with somebody who this tends to happen with kind of the bigger corporations where they’re selling financial products, whether that’s a mutual fund or an insurance product or an annuity product, their compensation is built into the product itself. So you don’t pay them. You don’t see the fee you’re paying, but when you put your money into the product, a portion of that is being taken as a commission and the commissions can be a lot of money and it’s not necessarily about the cost, but it’s really about the transparency and the conflicts that it can create, because if you’re compensated on commission and it’s something against the advisors, or is it just a business model that the corporations create is you’re, you’re incentivized to sell products that the person may or may not need. And so it’s just not a good, in my opinion, relationship to have with your advisor where they’re constantly looking for a different way to make money, um, as opposed to just providing you advice, that’s in your best interest.
Chris Pratt: Okay. So I’ve decided T.J. is a really trustworthy guy. I’m going to work with him and you know, let’s just start, I’m fresh out of college. And I got this sweet, new job with more income than I’ve ever seen in my entire life. Where would we start off?
T.J. van Gerven: Yeah. So the first thing again, it comes down to cashflow. So what are your income? Was your income look like? What is your expenses? How much monthly after tax income, do you have to decide how to allocate? Right? Cause that’s really what you’re going to be using to build your net worth. You know, at the end of the day, your best return on investment is going to be spending your time and then reinvesting and building your skills progressing in your career or whatever you’re doing. But outside of that, we want to maximize your hard-earned money. So we want to start, we want to look at your employer benefits. We want to make sure that you’re taking advantage of, you know, if you have a 401k, at least contributing enough to get the match, ideally you’re maxing your 401k. So you’re deferring income taxes, or you’re putting it into a Roth 401k where it’s after tax money, which we can talk about taking advantage of health savings accounts.
Again, if you have the option for, uh, equity compensation, whether it’s you can buy into your company’s stock purchase plan, we want to evaluate all these options. And we want to based on what your short term and long term financial goals are, right? Because if you want to buy a house in two years, then you might just want to save all your money in a bank account to get that down payment on the house. So it’s, it’s a combination of figuring out what are you trying to do? Are you trying to maximize your money and grow your net worth as fast as possible? And why ? Do you want to achieve financial independence? Where one day you can just live off your investments? Or are you trying to start a family? Do you want to get a house? Are you going to live there long enough to have it make sense as a financial investment?
Chris Pratt: Yeah. So you mentioned two key topics. We’ve talked a lot on the show about the 401k. So we’ll skip over that for now. But you mentioned, um, the stock purchase plan and you also mentioned the health savings account. I think a lot of companies these days have health savings accounts. So can you talk about what that is and how that’s different from like a PPO or HMO?
T.J. van Gerven: HMO? Yeah. So in order to use a health savings account, you know, your employer has to offer a high deductible health insurance plan, meaning that let’s say you’re younger and you don’t really go to the doctor a lot and you just need preventative care. Then you’re going to have a higher deductible. Meaning if you do need to go into the doctor and there’s something that’s not covered as preventative, then you’re going to have to pay out of pocket.
Chris Pratt: Okay, wait, wait. Okay. It took me so long to figure out what all of these terms mean with respect to health insurance. Right? So I get it now, but I can imagine some listeners are just like spinning. No, no, no. You’re good. Like, cause once you get it, it makes sense. But until you do, you’re just like, deductible premium, you know, what is a deductible?
T.J. van Gerven: Sure. So a deductible means, how much do you have to actually pay before the insurance will cover the bill?
Chris Pratt: Right.
T.J. van Gerven: So let’s say you have a $3,000 deductible and there’s also other things that can factor in this, but I’ll keep it simple. So let’s say the bill is $5,000 for something that’s not preventative. Then you’re going to have to pay that first $3,000 before the next $2,000 of the bill is covered.
Chris Pratt: Right.
T.J. van Gerven: So it’s, it’s a way for insurance companies to basically lower the premium, the amount you pay for insurance each month, because they know that something happens to you. You’re going to have to cover that first portion of the bill. So the higher your deductible, the lower your monthly premium. So it’s a trade off you have to make.
Chris Pratt: Yeah. And in this language is really important with, with pretty much all insurance, like car insurance uses the same language. It’s really important to understand what premium deductible co-insurance with those things mean. To me, the premium is the most simple and I wish it was maybe worded slightly differently. It’s basically your, your subscription fee, right? So like your $10 a month on Netflix is, is your, your premium for Netflix. So it’s, it’s just a fancy word of basically how much your health insurance, uh, costs. Right?
T.J. van Gerven: Exactly. Exactly. And hopefully you don’t need to use your insurance. I mean, so here’s a rule of thumb with insurance. You really want to try to only pay for things that are catastrophic, but low frequency. So that’s really where the best bang for your buck most times is going to come with insurance. So think about, you know, if you get in that car accident, God forbid, you want to cover the hundred thousand dollars hospital bill, right? You don’t want to worry about the thousand dollars, but you don’t want to have a super low deductible and pay a high premium each month because it’s probably not going to work out for you
Chris Pratt: The higher the deductible, the lower, the premium in general.
T.J. van Gerven: Yup, exactly.
Chris Pratt: Yeah. And so then a high deductible health insurance plan has a very high deductible, but you can use this thing called a health savings account. Whereas the PPO or HMO, the deductible gets lower and lower. Can you talk about PPO and HMO and the deductions for those?
T.J. van Gerven: SureYeah. So, PPO and HMO just has to do with like in-network versus out-of-network care. So if you’re somebody who likes to go to any doctor, then you’re going to want to choose your PPO plan, because that means you can go to out of network doctors, whereas the HMO restricts you to doctors within that plan, but the premiums tend to be lower because you’re restricted to certain types of doctors. So it’s really, the HSA component is more dependent on the deductible than the PPO versus HMO. But I wouldn’t worry about the PPO versus HMO as much for this conversation. The HSA, what that really allows you to do is it allows you to contribute money to this account called a health savings account. It’s kind of like a flexible investment account where you can put money into that account. Any dollars you put into there will reduce your taxable income.
So let’s say you can put $3,000 a year into your health savings account. That’ll reduce your taxable income by $3,000. So depending on, you know, what tax bracket you’re in, that’ll save you 20, 30, 40% of that $3,000 as taxes. And then you can put that money in HSA and you can actually invest it. But also if you need to pay for a healthcare cost because you have an out of pocket cost, right? Cause you have that high deductible plan, you can pull that money from the health savings account and anything you pull from it for qualified healthcare expense, you don’t owe any taxes on. So it’s a way to avoid paying taxes on those contributions to that account.
Chris Pratt: Right. I guess what, you know, I, I just recently, a few months ago had to go through this deciding, you know, an HMO PPO, a high deductible health insurance plan with an HSA. And for me like, like, you know, if you have a PPO, you have a co-pay, right? So it’s $40 to see a specialist. If you’re seeing a lot of specialists, that co-pay is a flat $40. Whereas with the high deductible health insurance plan, you’re paying the full cost out of pocket, whatever their out of pocket rate is until you meet the deductible. So for me, it was really confusing because like I have asthma and I need medication every month. Right. And so do you have advice, I’m sure you know it’s very individualized, but do you have like generic advice for like how or where you can go to try to navigate that, that decision of just whether you should use an HSA because you can use, you know, an FSA, flexible spending account with PPO, so, which is different, but…
T.J. van Gerven: Yup. So again, with all these financial decisions, right? No matter what decision is, whether it’s insurance investments, whatever, you have to just understand the range of outcomes and make the best decision possible based on what your expectations are. So if you expect that you need to go to the doctor a lot, and then you’re going to have a lot of out-of-pocket costs, then maybe you should have a lower deductible. And if you value going to any doctor, then maybe you should have that PPO plan. Uh, for someone like me, like I don’t, well, I’m also self-employed, but I don’t go to the doctor a lot. I’d rather have a high deductible plan with the HSA because it’s going to make the most financial sense for me
Chris Pratt: Because you’re not using the…
T.J. van Gerven: Yes..
Chris Pratt: Right.
T.J. van Gerven: Yeah. But if I do get in a catastrophic event, I will be covered for that portion at least.
Chris Pratt: Okay. So then, so I’m a young, healthy person. I, you know, maybe just to an annual checkup, which is free anyway, because it’s preventive care. And then I want to invest in this HSA, how do I do that? What is that for?
T.J. van Gerven: Yeah. So the HSA, you know, there is a lot of different platforms, so it’s going to depend on your employer, but you’re going to have a third party who you’re going to have an investment options. So just like you have with your retirement accounts or in an investment, you’re going to be able to put that money into, hopefully they have some, you know, simple, low cost options for investing. And then, you know, if you don’t need that money, hopefully it’s growing because it’s invested in the stock market. And then over time, if that money continues to grow, because you don’t ever need it for your out-of-pocket healthcare costs, you can actually still use that money much later in life. So it doesn’t disappear after age 65, you can actually pull that money out and use it for anything. You just have to pay income taxes on it, but you don’t have a penalty like you do before that age.
Chris Pratt: So if you use it for medical expenses you don’t pay any taxes on it when it goes in or when it comes out. Right?
T.J. van Gerven: Correct.
Chris Pratt: But when you turn 65, if you want to take it out, you just pay income tax.
T.J. van Gerven: That’s correct. And if you pull it up a four 65 and use it for something that’s not healthcare, then you have to pay income taxes plus a penalty.
Chris Pratt: Right. Okay. So for an HSA, you, you know, let’s say you switched jobs and, uh, you know, you go to a company that doesn’t have a high deductible health insurance plan anymore. You can still keep the account. Right? And the money that’s in it.
T.J. van Gerven: Yep, absolutely. Absolutely. And you should be, they should allow that should be portable regardless of your employer.
Chris Pratt: Okay. And then what about if I decide, I don’t want to do the health savings account in the high deductible health insurance plan, and I just want to do a PPO. There’s this thing called FSA. Could you explain that?
T.J. van Gerven: Yeah. So the FSA is a little less flexible than the HSA. So the FSA, you designate a certain amount that you want to set aside each year. So you’d have to say, I’m going to anticipate that I’m going to spend $2,000 a year on out-of-pocket healthcare costs. And what the FSA will do is it’ll set that aside from your paycheck. And again, it’ll reduce your taxable income by that amount. So you’re saving some taxes on it. The problem with the FSA is that if you don’t use it in that tax year, you lose whatever you set aside. So it doesn’t, you can’t invest it. And it doesn’t carry on like what the HSA.
Chris Pratt: So it’s really just a way to try to get tax benefits on medical expenses that you have to pay for that year.
T.J. van Gerven: Exactly. So you have to have those for sure. You’re like, I have to pay these medical expenses anyways. I might as well get the income tax break on it.
Chris Pratt: Okay. Yeah. So that’s enough about healthcare. That was really, but that was a really great overview. And I think, I know a lot of my friends and peers were very overwhelmed by, by the healthcare decision and what all those different plans are and how they work financially. So then there are other ways to invest, right? You can just invest in the stock market. You talked about the stock purchase plan. What is that?
T.J. van Gerven: Yeah. So if your company that you work for is publicly traded, sometimes they’ll have, what’s called an ESPP, which is an employee stock purchase plan, which will give you the benefits to purchase shares of the company you work for at a discounted rate. So the whole incentive there of doing so is they’ll, you know, a lot of times we’ll offer like a 15% discount on the cost of the, um, share price. So it’s kind of like a guaranteed rate of return. Now how valuable that stock purchase plan really does depend on a plan by plan basis. Some are much more lucrative than others, but I mean, that’s just literally one of several ways that you can be compensated in employer stock. And that’s honestly, probably the least valuable way cause you have to actually buy into it. But whenever we’re talking about employer stock in general, we want to be mindful of how much we’re accumulating as it relates to our overall investment portfolio, because we already worked for that company. So we don’t necessarily want to be so tied to that. Like, would we go out of our way to own this company? If we didn’t work there kind of thing.
Chris Pratt: Do you mean like invest in it on the stock market, correct?
T.J. van Gerven: Correct. Yeah. It’s like, if you’re getting compensated, like if they’re giving you stock or if you’re buying into the stock purchase plan, you know, would you go out of your way to own 50% of your portfolio in Microsoft? Right. You got to ask yourself that question. .
Chris Pratt: Yeah. And different stock purchase plans work differently, but they’re usually like uh, I forget what it’s called, like an enrollment period. And usually like when the, the money vests, when you’re able to sell the shares the day that that happens, they usually give you a really good rate. You mentioned that, that discount 10%, 15% or whatever.
T.J. van Gerven: Yeah. So the ones I typically see is, there’s a purchase period, which is usually like a six month period and the best plans I see that they’ll give you. So let’s say you’re investing 10% of your salary into the stock purchase plan and you signed up for it. You’re going to take 10% of each paycheck and you’re going to buy your company stock at the end of the six month period. They’re going to look at how much you’ve contributed to that stock purchase plan. If it’s a really good plan, they’re going to look at the lower of the six month values. And typically the lower value is going to be the one earlier in time. Right. Which makes sense. And then they’re also going to give you a discount on that price, which can be anywhere from 10 to 15 to 20%. And then they’re going to take whatever money that you’ve contributed. And they’re going to buy that many shares where they’re going to calculate how many shares you would own based on that. And then you’re going to get that and it’s going to vest, you know, each six month period, but you’re also going to be taxed on that discount.
Chris Pratt: Right. What tax rate do they use for that?
T.J. van Gerven: So that’s going to be taxed at your income tax rate. Cause it’s really just like additional compensation. Like they’re just giving you basically a bonus kind of thing.
Chris Pratt: Some people then would say, well, I want to hold the shares. And that’s what you’re talking about. Probably with, well, you want to have a diversified portfolio. So how deep are you into your, your one company with your investments?
T.J. van Gerven: Yeah, so that’s a really tough question. Um, especially when you have stock options where there’s, there’s more tax planning associated with it because the, if you’re just doing a stock purchase plan, you know, holding those shares, there’s not really a benefit tax wise because you’ve already been taxed on the discount. If the shares appreciate, there could be a benefit to holding onto them from an income tax standpoint. But the point is, is that anytime you’re talking about employer equity compensation, you kind of want to determine early on what percentage you’re comfortable with as it relates to your overall portfolio. And then also factor in what your net worth is. Cause, you know, obviously if your net worth is lower, it’s not as big of a deal. If you’re highly concentrated in a company,
Chris Pratt: Oh really?
T.J. van Gerven: A hundred percent, a hundred percent.
Chris Pratt: Could you explain that in more detail?
T.J. van Gerven: Yeah. So, you know, I get a lot of clients where they work at more startups and they’re going to compensate in equity and I will always advocate if they’re earlier in their career, you want to be concentrated, especially if you’re, if you’re working at a risky startup and you’re taking, you’re like you should put yourself in a position where you can benefit greatly from a potential IPO, right? If that company goes from a private company to a public company, cause that’s where you see the biggest windfalls meaning increases in your net worth. If it’s a public company, you’re not going to have that same level of potential, but there’s definitely a risk to diversifying too early, meaning selling off your investments that have the potential to appreciate a lot quickly, which again happens a lot with if you work in a startup kind of company.
Chris Pratt: Interesting. So how, I mean, I mean, how do you manage the risk of that? Is it more of, well, you don’t have a lot saved up, so you’re not risking that much money to begin with?
T.J. van Gerven: Exactly. I mean, here’s the thing, if you’re 22 and you go to work for a tech startup, right?
Chris Pratt: Right.
T.J. van Gerven: If you’re, if you’re going to, you’re going to be working your butt off probably, right? So you’re going to be getting paid a certain income, which may or may not be, you know, worth how much effort you’re putting into it. But if you can get paid in stock, if you’re going to take the risk to work for that kind of a company in the first place, you might as well try to benefit from, you know, cause if that company does well, especially in this environment, that company is going to be bought for a huge multiple of revenue. And if you have ownership in that company, when it goes from a private company to a public company, you’re going to get a huge pop. And at that point, then you can decide, and it would probably make sense to diversify at that point. But definitely not when it’s a private company.
Chris Pratt: Awesome. Well, I love that. Um, and I love that we got into that discussion. We’re out of time. Thank you so much for coming on the show. This was T.J. van Gerven, Certified Financial Planner. Um, you can check him out on his website, ModernWealthBuilders.com, I highly recommend that you contact him and reach out to him and check out his website, if you’re looking for a financial advisor. Again, ModernWealthBuilders.com. Thank you so much for coming on, T.J.
T.J. van Gerven: Hey, thanks Chris.