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Dr. Matt Rutledge has a Ph.D. in Economics from the University of Michigan. In this episode, he diced and sliced for us the conclusions of this article, “Do Young Adults with Student Debts Save Less for Retirement?” Tune in and immerse yourself into valuable lessons about student loan debts and retirement savings.

START TRANSCRIPT

Chris Pratt: We have an awesome guest today. He has a PhD in Economics from the University of Michigan. He’s worked for the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, and he’s a research fellow at The Center for Retirement Research at Boston College. He is first author of the article we’ll be talking about today, “Do young adults with student debt save less for retirement?” His name is Dr. Matt Rutledge. Welcome to the show, Matt.

Dr. Matt Rutledge: Thanks for having me, Chris.

Chris Pratt: Yeah, no problem. Before the show, we talked about your journey into graduate school a little bit, and you gave me some advice and some advice for our listeners. And I said, save it for when we go on air about waiting to go into graduate school. Do you want to start there about your first of all decision to go to graduate school, to get a PhD in economics, and then your advice for people who are considering it?

Dr. Matt Rutledge: Yeah, this is a conversation I’m fortunate enough to have a lot with the students I have here at Boston college. A lot of them are interested in pursuing higher education, you know, to try to improve their lot in life and between PhDs and Economics or Masters in Public Policy or Public Administration, or even, I guess, MBAs, you know, I think there’s a lots of opportunity for them to learn a lot and to improve their career paths. Um, in my case, I liked, uh, Economics a lot. Um, I did pretty well as an undergrad and I got some good advice early on to make sure I took a lot of math classes. And, uh, I did that and I decided to apply to graduate school as I was graduating from BC. Uh, I am at my Alma Mater right now, but then, uh, I was fortunate to get a job offer to work at the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston as a research associate for three years.

And I’m so glad I did for lots of reasons because I not only learned a lot about what my life as an economist would eventually be, you know, to seeing what that work looks like in the real world, especially policy related work stuff, that’s actually going to affect people in real life. But I also got to be a little bit more mature to save a little bit of money.

Chris Pratt: like to hear that.

Dr. Matt Rutledge: Yeah, exactly. I mean, this is a, you know, that that’s probably the most immediate need for people as they’re going into grad school. Cause even with a doctorate program where you’re going to be working for your tuition as a TA or as an RA, you know, that’s not very much money, so it’s nice to be able to, uh, afford to travel home from wherever you happen to end up. So it’s good to prepare that way too, but even just the fact that I was 25 instead of 22, I think was, was a big help to me. Um, I had a better perspective on the world.

Chris Pratt: You, you were 25 when you went in to graduate school, right?

Dr. Matt Rutledge: That’s right. Yeah. Rather than going in right at 22, I think, um, I probably wouldn’t have done as well as a younger person with these goals that are so far in the future still.

Chris Pratt: When you graduated from college, did you have the intent to go to graduate school at some point? Or is that something you decided you wanted to do at the federal reserve?

Dr. Matt Rutledge: Well, actually that’s, what’s nice about the federal reserve and not just the Boston one, but the board of governors in DC, New York, San Francisco, Richmond, Philadelphia, all of them are really great breeding grounds for people who are thinking about or eventually planning to go pursue a PhD. Now I happen to start with four other people, none of whom went on to the PhD in Economics, but we all at least thought about it and got some exposure to what, uh, the life of an economist would be. Uh, but it’s still great practice for people. You know, one of the people that I mentioned that I started with, uh, got her master’s in public policy and other got her master’s in finance and other one went on to a PhD in Psychology. Another one was on Transportation Economics or Transportation Sciences. So, you know, you get exposed to a lot of real public policy. You get great research practice. You know, you, you learn a lot about data, a lot about statistical programs. I really highly recommend it.

Chris Pratt: Okay. So I want to get into this article because it’s really this brief cause it’s really awesome, amazing work that you’ve done on top of other work. It’s called Do young adults with student debt save less for retirement and you can find the, uh, the brief online we’ll, we’ll share a link to it as well. And in this brief, how about you summarize it for us? Could you give us a summary?

Dr. Matt Rutledge: Well, sure. Uh, so this is work with Jeff Sanzenbacher, who is a colleague of mine at The Center for Retirement Research and in the Economics department at BC and a former colleague of ours, uh, Francis Vitagliano, who’s a consultant in the finance industry. We were surprised at how little work had tried to connect young people’s decisions to save for retirement and how much they’re ultimately able to put aside for retirement with the growing burden of student debt. I think it’s in part, it hasn’t been looked at a lot just because I think most of the growth in student debt has been within the last 15 years or so. And so it’s kind of hard for, um, you know, economists that have been out of school for a few years to realize that this is a growing problem. Uh, but also I think it’s really hard to connect student loan balances, the kind of debt that people have, to the decisions they’re making for retirement savings. Cause I think the data is often lacking. You know, we, we just don’t know a lot about how much people are saving at the same time that they’re trying to pay off their debt.

Chris Pratt: That sounds so simple and so obvious when you, when you say it, but it’s really not a novel concept because everyone wonders. Why do we have so much student loan debt last I checked, I think it was at $1.6 trillion or so. And you raise a really good point that we haven’t seen the ultimate right end of life, outcomes of student loan debt at this magnitude, at least. And I don’t think that’s something that a lot of people attribute to being part of the reason why we’re not really doing anything about it, if that makes sense. Right. I don’t think that people think, Oh, student loan debt is so high, but nobody’s working on it because we don’t have enough to know that the outcomes are actually bad, right? There’s always the argument that well you’ll make, you know, you’ll have a higher ROI because of the career prospects that will open up from the degree that you get.

And there are so many people, people who have been on this show, people, you know, other pundits and, and in different spaces who, who talk about the idea that if you get a degree in, you know, like my degree in computer science or engineering, or, you know, or finance, something that has high “value”, then you know, the degree is more worth it. But what you’re saying is that we don’t really know the details of that because we don’t have any long term longitudinal studies on you know, what’s going to happen to these people when they’re 60, 70 years old.

Dr. Matt Rutledge: That’s exactly right. And I think we won’t know for a good long time still, even if we trace our steps back to the beginning of the two thousands, when the student loan debt really started to take off, you know, the folks that were borrowing then are in their mid thirties, you know, they’re still 30 years away from retirement. I think part of the reason, and it’s really important to hear, because as you mentioned, student loan debt is an investment in your future, an investment that you are going to hope to pay off over the course of a really long career. And so while looking at somebody at age 30 might give us a fairly negative picture of their net worth and their financial portfolio. If we’re going to say, well, you still have all this debt because of your, you know, this investment you’ve made in your future.

And they’ll say, okay. Yeah, but I’m hoping that’s going to pay off some time later that I’ll have higher income and be able to save more, to make up for it. And so we really want to see how do these people end up fairing by the time they get to age 65 or 70, but we don’t want to wait 30 years for them to get the good data on that. Um, so instead, what we looked at in this paper was just how are they doing at age 30? Um, we basically compared people that had graduated from college, uh, we did look at non-graduates as well. Um, their pictures, a little bit different. It’s kind of bad for everybody if you don’t graduate from college. So it was a little bit simpler to tell the story just among the college graduates,

Chris Pratt: But what does that mean bad for everybody?

Dr. Matt Rutledge: Yeah. Um, assets are low, you know what we were ultimately looking like I was, how much do you have saved for retirement by the time you get to age 30? And basically everybody who went to college, but didn’t graduate just wasn’t, hadn’t accumulated a bunch of by age 30 because the prospects for somebody who doesn’t have a college degree, I mean for just frankly, aren’t that good? Um, I think that’s lost a lot in the discussion. I think of whether a student debt is all worth it, because I think the alternative is so much worse. You know, while I’ve heard your podcast a few weeks ago, um, with Robert Farrington about how you have to be careful about the student loan debt that you take out, uh, and about whether that’s really worth it or not. I think my reaction is I was listening to that podcast was to say, and I don’t want to cause podcast’s beef here, but I think we have to be cautious about that because we have to think about what the alternative is.

The alternative would, might be going to college and just getting a few credits, but not really having that degree to your name or not going to college at all. And if you look at the income growth among people who have some college experience, but no degree or people who just never went to college at all, they’ve seen basically no income growth for 30, 40 years at this point. And then actually even negative growth. They’re also way more likely to have no health insurance. They aren’t saving for retirement because they don’t have the kinds of jobs that make it easy for them to do it.

Chris Pratt: And these are people who started school, but they didn’t finish.

Dr. Matt Rutledge: That’s right. Yeah. Um, that might be for a lots of reasons. I think some associates degree people might be in there too, where they might be only looking for a two year degree. Um, but for the most part, they’re, they’re a very different group than the people who ultimately graduate from college and not a good way, unfortunately for them. Yeah.

Chris Pratt: I think you are starting the very first, uh, Gen Z Green podcast beef with Robert Farrington. So the next episode we’ll have you and him come on and, and, and fight each other. No, no, I’m kidding. Um, but that’s why we like to have guests, like you come on in and, and you know, Robert was pretty frank about this too, that he, you know, he doesn’t have the, I mean, he’s read a lot of research and, and a lot of the numbers, but he doesn’t have all the answers. You obviously don’t have all the answers either. Uh, nobody does.

Dr. Matt Rutledge: You said I didn’t have all the answers. I’m sorry,

Chris Pratt: But this data is, gets us a lot closer and it gives us a much better picture, especially from a statistical right likelihood perspective. And that really makes sense why? Cause I was wondering when I was reading this paper, why do you only go up to age 30? Why aren’t you going all the way through life with this data?

Dr. Matt Rutledge: Well, to this point, that’s, as far as we’ve seen the people that were surveyed in the data. So this data comes from the National survey, National Longitudinal Survey of Youth. Um, these are people that were sampled first for the first time in 1997 when they were in high school, sometime between, uh, sometimes even middle school or junior high as well, like ages 12 to 17 or so…

Chris Pratt: I wasn’t even born yet.

Dr. Matt Rutledge: Okay. Making me feel old. All right. This is actually, this is basically my cohort. Actually I would be on the upper end of this group. And so they were only to the point where we, by the time we saw them in 2013, when they were last sampled, by the time we did this study, they were only in their early thirties. And, um, basically what the analyst does is only look at their assets and debt every five years because it’s, it’s kind of a lot to ask for people to be open and to have good answers about how they’re doing.

Chris Pratt: Right. Okay. So now you look at students who did graduate, what did you find for those students?

Dr. Matt Rutledge: So for those students, we compared those people who had no debt to people who had basically low amount, a medium amount and a high amount of debt, actually that ended up being the easiest way to do things. Because what we were finding was what we would call a non-linearity basically that there’s a big difference between the people with no debt and the people with any amount of debt. But then we would want to see compare the people that might have a small, but manageable amount of debt to people who might be really well burdened. And so basically what we found, I think we were surprised by the first result, and maybe we can start there it’s that we didn’t really find much of a difference in terms of their participation rate in their, in their employer’s 401k or their employer’s retirement plan, which is almost always a 401k since a defined benefit pensions really aren’t a thing anymore. All four of those groups, the no debt, the low debt, the medium debt and high debt people were all participating in about a 61 62%.

Chris Pratt: Okay. Maybe we can take a pause here to just briefly explain. I always like to explain this, what is a 401k? Sure.

Dr. Matt Rutledge: Imagine an investment account that is offered to you by our employer so that they’ve already made some of the decisions in terms of what kind of management companies should you need and what kind of investment options do you have your contribution style, investment, investment account come right out of your paycheck. That’s something you agree to at maybe at the start of their employment or, you know, along the way you might change your mind and start to say more. Hopefully you will say more and for a lot of employers, although not all of them, um, they will put some matching funds. You know, if you put in say 6% of your salary, maybe they’ll put in 6%, if you’re lucky or maybe they’ll put in 3%, you know, they’ll, they’ll match it at some rate. Um, that money is locked up until you’re age 59 and a half.

In most cases, if you take out money earlier than that, you’re going to face a stiff penalty. And, uh, also some tax consequences,

Chris Pratt: Oh no penalty!

Dr. Matt Rutledge: But so, you know, for the most part, it is really locked up. The advantage of saving in a 401k is that you don’t pay taxes on it while you’re earning that money, while that money is going straight from your employer into your account, you’re not paying the taxes on that. So you’re reducing taxes that you pay in that period. You will have to pay more in taxes down the line, but if you’re retired in all likelihood, your income is going to be lower than when you’re at the peak of your career. So you might be paying taxes at a lower rate plus it’s in the future. And, you know, we can put that off that tax liability off. That’s also a good thing.

Chris Pratt: So there are a couple of things to the 401k. One is that it’s an investment vehicle or at the very least a savings vehicle, but the important part, there is an investment. So your, your money will grow over time passively without you virtually doing anything, right. Maybe you rebalance your portfolio or you can, you know, a lot of firms will manage your portfolio for you for a small fee. So you don’t even have to touch it or look at it or anything. And it gets invested into usually into the US stock market and maybe some, uh, some international funds. The other part is the tax benefit right. So there’s a tax benefit to investing in a 401k. Um, both of those things can be done in other retirement accounts and individual retirement account, an IRA. There’s a bunch of different types of IRAs. So really the biggest benefit of a 401k, then the third thing is the match, right?

Usually not always, but usually a company will put money into your 401k. So it’s your money based on however much you put in. So like you mentioned the six and 3%, the interesting thing is like I’m 22. So I wouldn’t be able to withdraw that money for 37 or so years. Right. And for a young person who hears penalty if I withdraw the money, but I can’t the money out for 37 years, that’s longer than I’ve been alive. It’s almost two times longer than I’ve been alive. That’s really scary. I think for, for a young person, who’s, who’s just graduating college. So I just want to set that context of why it’s so important to think about this stuff and talk about it before you get into the data, because it’s a, it matters so sorry to interrupt, but

Dr. Matt Rutledge: No, actually I, I like that discussion that context because I think actually as an assignment to my public policy in an aging society students, uh, at Boston college, uh, and they did a great job so far, uh, I’m in the middle of reading their policy memos where the writing prompt was to talk about the advantages and disadvantages of having the option to withdraw money from their 401k as a loan. You know, that is that you have a temporary withdrawal and then you gradually pay yourself back. You are your own creditor. Uh, you’re also, you’re on debtor. I guess you’ll pay yourself back with interest. So eventually you’ll have a little bit more in your 401k by the time you’re done. Uh, but in the meantime, you might miss out on the growth in your investments that for whatever money you took out, and there’s also the risk that people might not fully pay back their loan, especially if they change jobs in the middle of things, and then they would face those, those penalties for withdrawals that we talked about earlier.

Um, and so I think one thing to, to answer your concern, I think one thing that a lot of them are talking about successfully in the memo is that part of the reason employers might want to offer those 401k loans is to make a little less scary to lock up your money for 37 to five years, you know, and any, in any sort of long term, you know, that your money is locked up to you, I think is probably going to discourage you from saving or at least not saving as much as you would fully want to just because you wouldn’t be a little afraid that you wouldn’t be able to access it if you really needed it. But having a loan, I think makes it conceivably, could make people save more because they know that that’s not completely locked away and that they could access it if they needed it.

Chris Pratt: Wow. That’s I did not know that that’s really, I mean, I knew you could take out 401K loans, but I didn’t think of it from that perspective of kind of making it a little less scary. And I will say that regardless of scary investing in a 401k or an IRA is you still should do it as early as possible and how much you can invest, will depend on, on your situation, on your student loans and whatnot, which we’ll talk about here in a second, but you absolutely should do it. And I started investing for retirement a couple of years ago. Um, and, and I put as much of my paycheck as I can away to retirement, as much as you know, it, uh, it annoys me that I won’t be able to get it for 40 or so years.

Dr. Matt Rutledge: One thing I heard you mentioned in one of your earlier episodes, I can’t remember which one was that. I think the biggest part of the reason beyond just the fact that your returns are going to compound over time. I think the biggest part of the reason to start in investing in your 401k and investing in your own retirement early is just, that is great for habit formation. You know, you, you know, that you’re going to be developing that good habit of never really counting on counting on having that money in the short run and knowing that that’s future use money, you know, that’s future Chris’ money. That’s not current Chris’ money. And so you never get used to having it. And so you don’t miss it. Yeah. So it’s important to start that early on, just to be able to make sure that you make those right decisions along the way.

Chris Pratt: Right. And you know, your income will still go up. If you’re, you know, working hard, doing good in your job, you’re pursuing professional development. So you can still drive your income up. You can still make more money as you go. Right. It’s just a percentage of, of what you make. I like to think of it as a tax that’s being paid to yourself. So a percentage of what you make is always going to go to future you, and that’s really valuable. Okay. So I want to get back to this, this data, because you were talking about how some of these findings were actually kind of interesting. And I have that you found that college graduates fare better financially than those who attend college, but do not graduate, which we talked about and graduates without student debt tend to have better financial outcomes than those with student debt. Can you talk about that?

Dr. Matt Rutledge: Yeah. So the first result I mentioned actually doesn’t show that. So the first result was that college graduates are no more likely, no more or less likely to participate in a 401k than those who graduate without debt. So where is that advantage coming from? It’s really coming in from, in terms of how much they’re able to save by the time they’re 30. So this is a, this is an important distinction.

Chris Pratt: So it’s not about interest. It’s, it’s about ability. It’s not about willingness, right?

Dr. Matt Rutledge: Yeah. It’s not about sort of either, or you’re either participating or not. Everybody’s participating at about the same rate. You know, everybody basically has a 401k at the same rate, the debtors and the non debtors are basically, you know, about two thirds or little short of two thirds maybe three out of five of them are participating. And so the people with big loans have 401ks. It’s just that, by the time we see them at age 30, they’ve only accumulated half as much as the people with no student loan at all. Right. And so they’re half 401k. They have them for at least some period of time, but they’re just not able to, or willing to put much into the account. What that’s telling us is that the contribution rates are held back. So not, not the participation rates, whether you have a 401k or not, but the contribution rates, how much of your salary are you putting into your 401k is held back by that student loan.

Chris Pratt: Yeah. And that’s somewhat intuitive, right? You have the student loan, but there’s another part to this that I think it was that graduates, uh, retirement plans, assets don’t depend on the size of the student loan. It just depends on whether or not they have one. Is that correct?

Dr. Matt Rutledge: Yeah. That’s the thing that blew us away and that we actually, frankly didn’t notice right away. Um, it was actually talking to a reporter from the Wall Street Journal who saw our results and said, it’s interesting that you, uh, you found that the low loan people and the high loan people basically both have about the same level of assets, uh, at age 30. And we looked at it and, and we tried to tear that part of that result apart. And we have still not been able to get that result to go away. It’s shocking to us, but the people with low amounts of debt, the people who graduate with debt, but have something like $7,000 worth of debt sort of, that’s the 25th percentile. If you, if you’re good with stats, they have about $9,000 at age 30 in their 401k. It’s not very much better than nothing, but it’s, it’s not very much the people with 75th percentile, that’s about $28,000 worth of debt have about $9,300 in debt.

So actually I have a tiny bit more, but what we would have expected to see was that the, no debt people would have the most in assets. The next, the next highest would be the people that had low amounts of debt that were able to basically make their payments every month. And they weren’t held back in any substantial way in their budgeting. They could figure out how much they would spend and how much they would have left to save and that they would still save a decent amount. And so they would have the next most amount of money. And then the medium debt people would have the next most and the highest that people would probably be…

Chris Pratt: Yeah it’ll be a curve.

Dr. Matt Rutledge: Yeah. Yeah. But it’s not a curve. In fact, it’s just kind of a step down. If people want to look at the issue brief, basically it goes from $18,000 at age 30 for people with no debt and then down to $9,000 for each of the low, medium and high people. So basically exactly half.

Chris Pratt: Wow. That’s insane. And, and going back to what I said was the word intuitive, right? This is why data is so important because oftentimes we’ll find data that agrees with our hypothesis and then we’ll just stop there and we won’t dig deeper. We won’t not just do other studies, but we won’t even look at the data from different angles, slice it, different ways, drill through in different ways and this kind of shows, why it’s super important to look at the data. Now I want to hear your hypothesis. I’ll put out a guess as to why I think the numbers are the way that they are, which my guess would be in. And again, this is just an educated guess that they’re trying to pay off those loans. And by the age of 30, whether they have 7,000 or 28,000, what have you, they still haven’t completely paid off those loans. Do you have a hypothesis or do you have some results that kind of answered that question?

Dr. Matt Rutledge: That’s exactly where we were, where our brains is when as well, it’s basically a loan versus no loan story, rather than anything about the size of the loan or how much you have to set aside in your budget to make sure that you make your payments, which I think runs counter to the homo economics that an economic model would probably have predicted. I think that’s where that intuition part of that story, what might have been, you know, that the low loan people, you know, sure, they can’t save as much as the people without loans, but probably not a lot less. Right. Um, but that’s not at all the case. I think what they have in their minds is right now, I am in pay off my student loan mode. I am in the phase of my life where I have to focus on that. Even if it’s not very much, I am still, you know, in my, you know, this person would be in their late twenties, early thirties, and they’re saying, okay, I will worry about retirement only after that student loan has gone.

Chris Pratt: Yeah.

Dr. Matt Rutledge: And that’s true whether that loan is big or whether that loan is small.

Chris Pratt: Wow.

Dr. Matt Rutledge: Now the people who have a loan, that’s big, remember we’re only looking at age 30, they’re probably going to be stuck in that mode for a lot longer. And so if we were to look at these same group of people at age 40, and we’ll get the data on them in a few years, so maybe we’ll try to do this again. You know, maybe at 40, the low loan people have finally paid off their loan and they moved into a retirement saving phase.

Chris Pratt: Right.

Dr. Matt Rutledge: While the high loan people are still stuck in that student loan phase, or it might just be that, I don’t know that I’d be very surprised if that’s not the case. And so I’m looking forward to, and looking back at this in a few years.

Chris Pratt: Yeah. So most of our audience are young Gen Zers and millennials. And like we had been talking about retirement may be one of the last things that they would would think about. Um, we, we hope it’s not. And if they’re listening to this, it probably isn’t. So what did you not know about retirement when you were in college or in grad school that you’d wish you’d known it and maybe you didn’t know a lot because of your field of study,

Dr. Matt Rutledge: But I didn’t get into studying retirement until I was 30 until I got my job at the center for retirement research. And honestly, I went to my interview for them and said, all my research so far has been in things like health insurance and labor markets. It hasn’t really been in retirement policy. And so I spent a good portion of my early thirties learning the details of social security, learning the details of 401ks, learning about, you know, what kinds of health expenses people were going to be facing once they get old. So it’s never too late. I think maybe that’s the one positive message out of that is that it’s never too late to learn more the earlier you can learn it definitely the better

Chris Pratt: And the more money you can make it, uh, on the tail end.

Dr. Matt Rutledge Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

Chris Pratt: One last question for you before we let you go. What is, and you gave a little bit of this. What is your advice for people who are either trying to make the decision of whether they should take on student debt or who have student debt and want to prepare for retirement and, and, and start investing in and secure a good future from a young age?

Dr. Matt Rutledge: So this isn’t going to be more of our podcasts beef, I think with Robert Farrington, but, um, I’m a big believer in student debt and I am living proof of that. I’m still paying at age 41. I still have student debt because I realized that I have a good deal, that my student loans are still a fairly low interest rate, lower than I would get. You know, basically if I’m paying something like 3% or even 4% interest rate on my student loans, so I could pay it off and I could essentially make a return of three or 4% that I don’t have to be paying out to my student loan servicers to Sally Mayer or whoever, whoever is still has my loans at this point. Or I could put that money in a 401k and probably earn more than four, three or 4% in return.

So over the long term, even, even with the, you know, fluctuations we’ve seen in 2020 and 2019. So I should make the choice that optimizes my long term interest rate. I mean, just overall, I think, you know, even stepping back to, cause I know some of your listeners are going to be people who are not even in college yet, or at least I hope so. Cause I think they would really learn a lot from your podcast.

Chris Pratt: Absolutely.

Dr. Matt Rutledge: I think if you’re thinking about taking on student debt while the amounts might seem really big and actually just not very concrete at all, you know, this is really just abstract concepts to you at this point. You’ve never seen money this big. Student loans often make education possible that wouldn’t otherwise be possible. And I use the example of the fact that I am hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt right now, personally, that sounds scary, but it’s because I’m a homeowner with a mortgage.

I wouldn’t be able to afford my home if mortgages didn’t exist. And if I wasn’t willing to take on that mortgage, I probably wouldn’t. I would definitely, it would take me decades to be able to save up enough, to afford a decent home in the Boston suburbs where I live. And if we didn’t have mortgages overall, I doubt that the homes would be worth as much as they are. I wouldn’t have had to pay so much to the person who sold me, their house, student loans. I think by the same token, make it possible for us to go to the kinds of schools that, you know, unless we had a whole bunch of money saved up, we wouldn’t be able to, to reach out to, um, so I have kids, I have a 10 year old and a nine year old, and I am putting money aside in a 529 plan to make sure that they’re ready for college, but I’m not aiming to be able to hunt, to finance a hundred percent of their college education with that 529 plan.

And that’s for several reasons, maybe they don’t want to go to college at all. Maybe they come to Boston college and they get a good, good tuition discount if I still work here. Um, or maybe it’s just good for them to have a small, but manageable student loan. Maybe it keeps their skin in the game. It gets them to realize that this is on them to make sure that they are getting the most out of their college education because ultimately they are paying for their investment in themselves. So they’re not just relying on dad to do it.

Chris Pratt: Absolutely, well we’re out of time. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Again, this is Dr. Matt Rutledge and you can read this Do young adults with student debt save less for retirement?” Again, Dr. Matt Rutledge. Thank you so much for coming on the show. This was, this was really fun.

Dr. Matt Rutledge: Thanks for having me. This was a great conversation.

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